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Temat: Niepublikowane listy i inne teksty J.R.R.Tolkiena (Strona 1 z 1)

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M.L.
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Wysłany: 01-02-2005 13:39    Temat wpisu: Niepublikowane listy i inne teksty J.R.R.Tolkiena Odpowiedz z cytatem Szukaj na forum

Na stronie domu aukcyjnego Charles Leski Auctions http://www.leski.com.au/news/20041221/tolkien.htm pojawil się niepublikowany wcześniej list J.R.R.Tolkiena. Jest to list z wrzesnia 1955 roku, a więc z okresu, kiedy dobiegały końca prace nad publikacją III tomu WP.
Strona 1:


A oto transkrybcja:

8 September 1955
Dear Mrs. Souch,
I am sorry for the delay in answering your letter. I went for a brief holiday in Gondor (or in modern terms Venice), which only served to reveal my tiredness to the full, and not to relieve it. Since my return I have let the days slip. Not to detriment of vol.III! That was out of my hand some time ago. It should, of course, have come out in the Spring. And why not, since it was all written long ago? Wel, from the moment publication began, I was beset by obstacles in the shape of ineluctable duties and offices; and the compression of the material into Appendices was a long and difficult task. In the end much has had to be jettisoned, including the facsimiles of the "Book of Mazarbul", and the index of names (with translation).

No i tłumaczenie Śmiech :

Szanowna Pani Souch,
Bardzo przepraszam za opóźnienie z jakim odpowiadam na Pani list. Byłem na krótkich wakacjach w Gondorze (albo według współczesnej nomenklatury w Wenecji). Niestety nie udało mi się wypocząć. Ten krótki pobyt jedynie obnażył pełnię mojego zmęczenia. Od powrotu spędzam czas leniwie. To jednak nie ma wpływu na losy tomu trzeciego, gdyż oddałem go (do wydawcy - przyp. M.L.) jakiś czas temu. Rzeczywiście powinien ukazać się wiosną. Dlaczego się nie ukazał, choć wszystko od dawna było już napisane? No cóż, od czasu kiedy rozpocząto publikowanie (Władcy Pierścieni- przyp. M.L.) mnożyły się przede mną liczne przeszkody w postaci obowiązków prywatnych i służbowych, których niestety nie mogłem uniknąć. Co więcej dobieranie materiałów do Dodatków bylo długim i żmudnym zadaniem, a i tak znaczna ich część musiała zostać usunięta, w tym faksymile "Księgi Mazrbul", oraz indeks nazw (wraz z tłumaczeniami).

Strona 2:


I transkrybcja:

Such as it is, another 300 pages of narrative, and about 100 of additional matter, it should appear soon. When I last heard it was hoped to done it at the end of this month. I hope it will not be any longer!
It was extremely kind of you to write. I will not relieve your anxiety about the fate of the various characters; but I hope the end will not seem unworthy. I have not myself any doubt that things went just so but that does not say that my attempt to record them is successful. The problems of presentiment with to many centres of sympathy and attention were considerable.
Before long I must turn to the legends of the First and Second Ages, and put them in order!

Tłumaczenie:
Taki, jakim jest, z trzystoma stronami narracji i około stoma stronami Dodatków, tom ten powinien już wkrótce się ukazać. Według ostatnich wieści, jakie do mnie dotarły, miano nadzieję, że zostanie wydany przed końcem tego miesiąca. Mam nadzieję, że nie później!
Bardzo to miło z Pani strony, że napisała Pani do mnie. Niestety nie zaspokoję Pani ciekawości odnośnie losów poszczególnych postaci. Mam jednak nadzieję, że zakończenie spodoba się. Jestem pewien, że wszystko tak właśnie się potoczyło, ale to jeszcze nie oznacza, że moja próba spisania tych wydarzeń była udana. Trudno jest przewidywać wydarzenia, kiedy jest zbyt wiele obiektow zainteresowania i sympatii.
Za niedługo muszę zająć się uporządkowaniem legend dotyczących Pierwszej i Drugiej Ery.

_________________
ēl sīla lūmena vomentienguo wieeeeeeeeeelgachny uśmiech
---------------------------------------
For the grace, for the might of our Lord
For the home of the holy
For the faith, for the way of the sword
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Goku
Ka-Me-Ha-Me-Ha!


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Wysłany: 18-08-2005 01:55    Temat wpisu: Odpowiedz z cytatem Szukaj na forum

M.L. w temacie 'Pochodzenie Orków' napisał(a) (zobacz wpis):

Cytat:
BTW. Czy na tym forum cytował ktos list JRRT potwierdzający wprost istnienie kobiet-orków? (list nie ujęty w "Listach Tolkiena") Bo ja moge zacytować, jeśli to rzecz nieznana.


Zobacz http://forum.tolkien.com.pl/viewtopic.php?p=43263#43263, tu był cytoiwany fragment. (Chwała Ci Dis chwała wam, chylę czoła, dzięki ), ale jeżeli masz jakieś obszerniejsze, to zapraszamy. wieeeeeeeeeelgachny uśmiech


Mam w swoich tolkienowskich e-zbiorach Pserwa szerszy opis zawartości tego nieopublikowanego listu. Jest on adresowany do Pani Munby i zawiera odpowiedzi na pytania jej syna związane z "Władcą Pierścieni" oraz dostarcza trochę informacji o teoriach Tolkiena dotyczących mitologii. List jest datowany na 21 October 1963, Hotel Miramar, Bournemouth and 76 Sandfield Road, Oxford
Cały list składa się z 6 stron.

Na publiczne Z przymrużeniem oka tłumaczenie znalezionego tekstu się nie porwę Uśmiech Jeśli ktoś o lepszej znajomości angielskiego byłby skłonny przetłumaczyć dla innych to z góry dzięki Pserwa

Opis tego co znajduje się w liście:


  • blaming ``the combined pressure of overwork and ill health'' for his late response, Tolkien notes that ``satisfactory answers'' to Stephen Munby's questions ``would take pages, and would I think not be really intelligible to him''. Tolkien therefore suggests

    ...the best general answer is that ``The Lord of the Rings'' is purely imaginary in scene and time (though not in the behaviour of the characters in the situations that they find themselves in). It is not possible to represent an ``imaginary'' world, and have answers for all the questions that may be asked about it...

    Noting that Stephen Munby's questions are mainly concerned with ``ancient history'', Tolkien states his ``points will all be made clearer when (if ever) I have time to complete and publish the legends of the earlier ages''. The author then states his ideas of imaginary history and the layers of history behind this and, thereby, provides AN EXAMPLE OF HIS TREATMENT OF MYTHS AND HISTORY:

    ...The references (such as Morgoth etc.) do refer to stories actually written, but in this tale they only appear in order to give the tale a `place' in an imaginary history. Perhaps this could be understood by a comparison with real `history'. Supposing a story was written in which the climax was the tragedy of the Battle of Hastings. It would be about the behaviour of the chief characters such as Harold and William, but there might be references to older history (at more than one remove) say to the death of Arthur, or the coming of the English when they were the invaders, and even far away to the legendary North from which they came, and to their struggle with the Danes (from whom William was descended) or to their old pagan gods. But it would be impossible to provide answers for such references except by writing more books!

    Tolkien then confesses he does not enjoy ``stories of an imaginary world that have not got any imaginary history''. Returning to The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien notes ``...the story is really about Death and pity and Self-sacrifice'' and comments on the apparent absence of God in the book.

    There then follow eight numbered replies to original questions that concern actual history, use of Old English for the language of the Rohirrim, Satan (``Sauron was one of the lesser spirits who had at one time served him...''), the ``ultimate history of Men'', orc-women, the invention of the name ``orc'' (``...in The Hobbit `goblin' is used... but goblin is a fairly modern word, and very vague in its application to any sort of bogey in the dark...'') and high-elves, etc.


EDIT:
Dodaję też fragment znaleziony przez Dis ( tutaj ) ,dotyczący kobiet orków.

Dis napisał(a) (zobacz wpis):
W związku z zagadnieniem czy w ogóle orkowie rozmnażali się na sposób ludzki, więc czy były tam kobiety i dzieci - znalazłam na innej liście dyskusyjnej taki oto link: http://greenbooks.theonering.net/guest/files/041305.html

Jest tam fragment wypowiedzi Tolkiena (pochodzącej z niepublikowanego listu), a potwierdzający, że były kobiety-orki. Niestety Autor stwierdza, że nic bliższego nie ten temat nie wie.

Cytat:
The letter came up for sale at an auction at Sotheby's in London on 11 and 12 July, 2002. It is dated 21 October 1963, and is addressed to a Mrs Munby in response to a number of questions posed by her son Stephen about The Lord of the Rings. The letter is long, but in one place reads as follows:

'There must have been orc-women. But in stories that seldom if ever see the Orcs except as soldiers of armies in the service of the evil lords we naturally would not learn much about their lives. Not much was known'.



Tłumaczenie robocze:

----------------------------------------------------------------------
List pojawił się na aukcji w Sotheby's w Londynie 11-12 lipca, 2002 r. Datowany jest na 21 października 1963 r. i adresowany do p. Munbiego w odpowiedzi na szereg pytań, które jego syn Stephen zadawał nt. WP. List jest długi, ale w jednym miejscu można przeczytać:

"Musiały być kobiety-orki. Ale ponieważ opowieści rzadko, jeśli wogóle przedstawiają Orków inaczej niż żołnierzy armii władców zła, oczywiste jest, że nie dowiemy się wiele o ich życiu. Nie wiele wiadomo."
----------------------------------------------------------------------- --

Koniec tłumaczenia.

_________________
play dirty, play dead - just be yourself
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Goku
Ka-Me-Ha-Me-Ha!


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Wysłany: 21-08-2005 00:51    Temat wpisu: Odpowiedz z cytatem Szukaj na forum

List Tolkiena z 28 maja 1969 (sprzedany na aukcji za prawie 3000 funtów)

Tolkien, J.R.R. Fine autograph letter signed, discussing the name "Rivendell"

to Anthony D. Howlett responding to his application to use the name of Elrond's house for the name of his own home. Tolkien mentions the recent use of this word as a house-name:

"...only a few have been so kind as to tell me of their choice or ask leave - which is not necessary, since products of the art of name-coining cannot be patented... The choice is in any case a compliment, and a confirmation of my feeling that Rivendell is a pleasant and natural-sounding name."

Noting that the name "...is not an exact translation of Imladrist..."' Tolkien suggests a closer rendering of the original "...as meaning "flat-floared valley of the Cleft..." and then provides versions in his elvish languages of Quenya and Sindarin with notes. Also included is an additional slip on which Tolkien summarizes his four versions of either "Imladrist" or "Rivendell".

2 pages, and additional slip, 8vo, c/o George Allen and Unwin [Bournemouth], 28 May 1969, typed envelope, creasing and soiling to envelope

I ze strony "Mellonath Daeron - The Language Guild of the Forodrim"
Cytat:
In a letter to Anthony D. Howlett, Tolkien demonstrates how to write the name Imladrist "in the antique S. mode shown on the gates of Moria" and "[i]n the general use (applicable to both S. and Q) of the period of the tale". He also shows two different ways to write Rivendell using the latter mode. In the first inscription, one of the tengwar has been crossed over and a correction has been added in the margin (<malta> is corrected to <vala> for m).


Zauważcie, że w tym fragmencie listu napisanego pod koniec życia, Mistrz wyraża pośrednio swoją opinię na temat praw własności i patentowania słów lub nazw:
Mistrz napisał(a):
...only a few have been so kind as to tell me of their choice or ask leave - which is not necessary, since products of the art of name-coining cannot be patented...

Szkoda, że Christopher Tolkien i Tolkien Estate nie przejmują się jego zdaniem, często posuwając się do takich absurdów jak próba zastrzeżenia nazwy Shire:

Źródło: http://www.boingboing.net/2004/07/14/tolkien_estate_claim.html
Cytat:
Wednesday, July 14, 2004
Tolkien estate claims trademark for "shire"
The Tolkien estate and Warners have sent out a lawyergram to the owner of shiremail.com, arguing that the word "Shire" belongs to them. The Register traces over 1,000 years of usage of the word "Shire" in England, and enumerates many towns with the word "shire" in their names across the English countryside.

n fact, we don't think it would be too provocative to suggest that JRR Tolkien may have been inspired by over a thousand years of common history when he first came up with the name "The Shire" as the idyllic home country of the books' main protagonists, the hobbits.

However, the legal letter claims that "goodwill in the name has been achieved through sales of such books". Certainly The Shire sounded rather nice as presented in the fictional books, but we suspect the goodwill towards the area in which people live was there before Mr Tolkien even put pen to paper.

_________________
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Goku
Ka-Me-Ha-Me-Ha!


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Wysłany: 21-08-2005 13:19    Temat wpisu: Odpowiedz z cytatem Szukaj na forum

4 listy Tolkiena z okresu 23 listopad 1961 - 3 sierpnia 1962

Tolkien, J.R.R. Two autograph letters signed, one typed letter signed and one typed letter signed with initials to Pauline Gasch [née Baynes] regarding the illustration of The Adventures of Tom Bombadil (1962)


In the first letter Tolkien notes the genesis of the volume:

"The notion really originated with an old lady, who for some reason is specially fond of Tom Bombadil, as he appears in 'The Lord of the Rings'. She thought that more about him, with pictures, would make a nice little book. So I naturally thought at once of you; and dug out the original verses about Tom that appeared long ago in a magazine."

Hoping that the verses "...will at least amuse...'', Tolkien confesses doubt as to the cohesion of the collection ("...few of them really consort with Tom Bombadil, who is ra[t]her an odd creature'') and hopes that the illustrator will be moved "to make some of your wonderful pictures''.

In the second letter Tolkien hopes that Baynes is "still thinking kindly of cooperating'' and discusses a Swedish translation of Farmer Giles of Ham which he recently received (being "...again struck by the enormous importance (to that little squib) of your work.'') Recalling his love of trees the author states he has "...not cut down my three beautiful birches (grown from seedlings) yet; and I should arrest myself at once, if I detected any movement on my part in that direction'' and concludes with comments on the weather.

In the third letter, Tolkien notes his admiration of Baynes' working practices and laments his own ("...I very much admire and approve your wisdom and strength of mind in finishing one thing before becoming involved in another. I wish I could do this, or my circumstances would allow me to!'') He again asks for Baynes to work on the book ("...this project was from the outset conceived (by me) as one to which your help was essential...'') and hopes for a visit. Tolkien comments on the text and notes "though on the surface `lighthearted' these things have a serious undercurrent, and are not meant at any point to be merely comic, perhaps excepting Sam Gamgee's stuff". He concludes with a list of corrections to the text.

The final letter, signed `J.R.R.T.', records Tolkien's reaction to the first batch of pictures produced for the book:

"I am delighted. I do not think that they could have been more after my own heart. I am not surprised: I felt certain that anything you produced would delight me -- and make me deeply envious of your skill."

He concludes by hoping that the illustrator is "...not feeling too pressed'' and, again, provides a statement on his own working practices:

"If you work in any way like I do, the final forms of these things must cost much time and thought. All I can say is that I sympathize: I have been obliged to work so much under pressure (and distraction), when my natural tendency is to unlimited refinement of detail. But I have sometimes found... that pressure digs up some inspiration..."

7 pages, 4to and 8vo, 76 Sandfield Road, Oxford, 23 November 1961 to 3 August 1962, minor tears to extremities of first letter, two ink spots to fourth letter

Tolkien's "old lady'' who asked for the story of Tom Bombadil to be extended was his aunt, Jane Neave. The original poem appeared in the Oxford Magazine in 1934. In approaching his publishers, Tolkien noted that the book might "do well" if accompanied by illustrations by Pauline Baynes. By December 1961 Pauline Baynes had agreed to work on the volume and The Adventures of Tom Bombadil was published in November 1962.

_________________
play dirty, play dead - just be yourself
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Goku
Ka-Me-Ha-Me-Ha!


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Wysłany: 24-08-2005 00:13    Temat wpisu: Odpowiedz z cytatem Szukaj na forum

Listy jakich nie znacie Z przymrużeniem oka continued Pserwa

List z 5 czerwca 1973 roku (inny list z tego samego dnia - Mistrz chyba musiał w tym dniu odpowiadać na większą ilość korespondencji - jest zawarty w oficjalnym, wydanym zbiorze)

[...] offering to sign any books, the author invites the recipient to his "guarded rooms in 21 Merton Street" and notes "...I could show you some pictures & a tapestry associated with 'The Lord of the Rings' and some other things..." Tolkien explains that his rooms in Merton Street are guarded since "...it was arranged that my living there was not to be known; but since it became known, I have been assailed by hosts of people, and, worse, have been invaded by criminals, so that I live behind locked doors, and under the eye of the local C.I.D. Which all sounds romantic, but is in fact an infernal nuisance. But I should of course arrange for you to pass the barrier..."

2 pages, 8vo, Merton College Oxford (on headed paper of 19 Lakeside Road, Dorset), 5 June 1973, headed "Private and confidential''; together with envelope

The recipient of this letter, was the great-great grandson of Sir James A.H. Murray (1837-1915), the founding editor of the Oxford English Dictionary.

_________________
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Galadhorn
Strażnik Północy


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Wysłany: 24-08-2005 00:23    Temat wpisu: Odpowiedz z cytatem Szukaj na forum

Poszukiwaczy nieznanych listów Tolkiena zapraszam również tutaj:

http://elendili.pl/viewtopic.php?p=26529#26529

Znajdziecie tam wyżej omawiane listy, jak również kilka innych...
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Goku
Ka-Me-Ha-Me-Ha!


Dołączył(a): 02 Lis 2001
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Wysłany: 24-08-2005 01:04    Temat wpisu: Odpowiedz z cytatem Szukaj na forum

O, no proszę, Adaneth odwaliła kawał dobrej roboty Jestem za Uśmiech Kilku z tych listów zupełnie nie znałem. Gratulacje dla niej za odcyfrowanie szlaczków Mistrza Uśmiech
Mimo wszystko zamieszczę tutaj te listy które sam znalazłem Uśmiech Wolę je mieć tam gdzie zaglądam wieeeeeeeeeelgachny uśmiech

4 czerwca 1949

Tolkien, J.R.R. Fine autograph letter signed "J.R.R. Tolkien" to Pauline Baynes discussing Farmer Giles of Ham and inviting her to contemplate illustrating "the lord of the rings"

expressing "great pleasure" at Pauline Baynes' illustrations to Farmer Giles of Ham (1949), noting "...friends, very justly, said after seeing them, that they had reduced the text to a commentary on the pictures..." stating, however, that he is "distressed"' explaining:

"Ignorant as I am of the costs and of production-processes, I had hoped for a larger page and space. I fear it has done small justice to your beautiful line and pattern to reduce the size so drastically. Even so, what little value this rather slender "squib" has in much enhanced by your work."

He then refers to "...some longer works..." and specifically states:

"...a long romance in sequel to "The Hobbit"' is finished after some years of work, and is being typed. It is held up at the moment, since I am immersed in examinations and other weary business; but when it is done, I wonder if I could prevail on you to glance at it..."

2 pages, 8vo, Merton College, Oxford, 4 June 1949

a fine letter to j.r.r. tolkien's favourite illustrator. Tolkien spent some time searching for a suitable illustrator for Farmer Giles of Ham. He turned down his publisher's first choice, however upon being shown some drawings in the Anglo-Saxon style, pronounced that this was the type of illustration he felt was suitable for his story. The artist was Pauline Diana Baynes and she was invited, in October 1948, to submit illustrations for the story. Her style of illustration continued to appeal to him greatly and in 1961 he wrote to her "you seem able to produce wonderful pictures with a touch of "fantasy"' but primarily bright and clean visions of things that one might really see".

Hammond and Anderson report that Tolkien wrote to Ronald Eames on 10 December 1948 stating the first examples of Pauline Baynes' work were "the perfect counterpart to the text (or an improvement on it) and to accord exactly in mood". In March 1949 Tolkien wrote again to Eames and cites the reaction of his friends. The anecdote is also recalled for Baynes in this letter.

Despite claiming that the sequel to The Hobbit was "finished"' the first volume of The Lord of the Rings was not published until July 1954. Hammond and Anderson note, with reference to The Lord of the Rings that "Tolkien tended to wrongly predict its date of completion and underestimate its final size". The volumes, when published, were not illustrated. In 1964, however, a 'deluxe' set was issued with a pictorial slipcase. The design for the slipcase comprised a 'triptych' view of Middle-Earth by Pauline Baynes. This depiction so impressed Tolkien that he asked for the watercolour and it remained in his possession until his death.

_________________
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Galadhorn
Strażnik Północy


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Wysłany: 31-10-2006 10:05    Temat wpisu: Odpowiedz z cytatem Szukaj na forum

Pojawiła się informacja o nowo ujawnionym liście Tolkiena na aukcji w Christie's. Ciekawostką jest to, że Tolkien zapisał tam w quenya tengwarem tytuł filmu Tolkien in Oxford. Brzmi to Arcastar Mondósaressë, gdzie Arcastar = Tolkien, Mondósar = Oksford. Możemy teraz z całą pewnością siebie mianem Arcastardil 'miłośnik Tolkiena' Z przymrużeniem oka

Oto zdjęcie listu (+ inskrypcja w egzemplarzu WP):



O samym liście przeczytacie tutaj.

Analiza słów Arcastar i Mondósar tutaj i tutaj.

_________________
Odbicie piękna jak odbicie światła ma w sobie specyficzny urok – gdyby nie to, nie zostalibyśmy zapewne stworzeni.

J.R.R. Tolkien, Zapiski Klubu Mniemań
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